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Cooler
Well-Known Member
I was on fire until work knocked me sideways.
SinRaven
SPACED OUT
Yeah I couldn't bus either because I was 100% dependent on you guys surviving
Should not have claimed Yuumi though. I think people would've lynched me more or sent more actions onto me if I didnt claim her
Kvothe Kingkiller
Well-Known Member
yea I put a lot of effort into this game...
into RIGGING IT
gib me malzahar next time :<
Lord Genome
Spiral King
Point out what now
Lord Genome
Spiral King
Shizune
Now that I've slept, I want to talk about some of the things that went down in this game, starting with the disagreement over whether a vote silence should have disabled Ashe's passive. It was not a coincidence or accident that the interaction worked in this way; Draven was one of the first roles I made, and I later made Ashe specifically as a counter to Draven. Soraka had no voting power, and Swain had to sacrifice his voting power to use his ability, leaving town short on voting power to fight back against Draven with. Without Ashe's passive, it would have been too easy for Draven to start simply outvoting swathes of people by himself. The idea was that if the town all unified behind one person, they could still as a group outvote Draven. The point is, there was never going to be a different interpretation of those abilities where Draven could disable Ashe's passive. Ashe's passive was created to counteract Draven's passive; not the other way around.
Now that I've explained why the interaction worked that way, I want to address Nessos's claim that this interaction was responsible for the mafia's loss. Nessos, you said that the only reason you guys didn't go after Lord Genome was because you thought you could disable his passive, but after going back and reviewing the mafia chat, I found that not to be true. You guys were not aware of LG's passive until the very end of day 3, which was the day you outed yourselves by lynching Kvothe Kingkiller. Here is what you guys said about it on that day:
So to summarize, Nessos didn't know about LG's ability, and Oddjutsu not only believed it was just a one shot, but thought LG was bluffing it entirely. By this point, you all had already decided to reveal yourselves by lynching Kvothe that day. So despite what Nessos has repeatedly claimed, their decision to out themselves to lynch Kvothe had nothing to do with whether or not Draven could disable Ashe's passive.
That night, you decision about who to kill also had nothing to do with LG's ability. You immediately decided to kill Usopp, and never even considered killing LG. Here are there messages where you decided who to kill on night 3:
You did not come up with the idea that your vote silence could disable Ashe's ability until day 4, by which point you had already completely thrown your chances of winning the game. Here is the first time you mention it:
You have also tried to blame your defeat on my not answering a question, but in fact, on that very day I did quickly answer the question you asked to clarify how this interaction would work:
So Nessos, frankly I do not appreciate the many post you have since made trying to blame your loss on this ability interaction, or on my hosting. You effectively secured your defeat when you all decided to out yourselves and lynch Kvothe, and at that point you weren't even aware of LG's ability. By the time the confusion arose over whether you could disable LG's passive, you had already lost the game, and I did try to clear it up as quickly as possible.
Your team also made a litany of other mistakes this game I haven't mentioned yet, but I won't bother getting into those unless you continue refusing to take responsibility for your actions this game.
1. @Lord Genome (Ashe) - perhaps the most overlooked part of this game is that we actually got to witness the ultra-rare appearance of town leader LG. LG was one of the first to scum read Odd, he pushed Odd harder than anyone else did, and he (alongside WPK) took charge of organizing the votes to play around Sin's passive. If I had to point to one reason why town won this game, it was because of LG playing as well as he did and maximizing the power of his passive.
2. @Nessos (Fiora) - Nessos's team was being cracked open by day 2, and Nessos was the only one really keeping them in the game. Nessos's play was so convincing that even when the town had a result indicating Mexikorn and Nessos were both scum, they dismissed it as a faulty result because they were all town reading Nessos. iirc, DDL was the only person who even raised the possibility of Nessos being mafia, and he did so halfheartedly. Although I disagree with Nessos about why he lost, I still think this game demonstrated that Nessos is one of our strongest players.
Now that I've explained why the interaction worked that way, I want to address Nessos's claim that this interaction was responsible for the mafia's loss. Nessos, you said that the only reason you guys didn't go after Lord Genome was because you thought you could disable his passive, but after going back and reviewing the mafia chat, I found that not to be true. You guys were not aware of LG's passive until the very end of day 3, which was the day you outed yourselves by lynching Kvothe Kingkiller. Here is what you guys said about it on that day:
So to summarize, Nessos didn't know about LG's ability, and Oddjutsu not only believed it was just a one shot, but thought LG was bluffing it entirely. By this point, you all had already decided to reveal yourselves by lynching Kvothe that day. So despite what Nessos has repeatedly claimed, their decision to out themselves to lynch Kvothe had nothing to do with whether or not Draven could disable Ashe's passive.
That night, you decision about who to kill also had nothing to do with LG's ability. You immediately decided to kill Usopp, and never even considered killing LG. Here are there messages where you decided who to kill on night 3:
You did not come up with the idea that your vote silence could disable Ashe's ability until day 4, by which point you had already completely thrown your chances of winning the game. Here is the first time you mention it:
You have also tried to blame your defeat on my not answering a question, but in fact, on that very day I did quickly answer the question you asked to clarify how this interaction would work:
So Nessos, frankly I do not appreciate the many post you have since made trying to blame your loss on this ability interaction, or on my hosting. You effectively secured your defeat when you all decided to out yourselves and lynch Kvothe, and at that point you weren't even aware of LG's ability. By the time the confusion arose over whether you could disable LG's passive, you had already lost the game, and I did try to clear it up as quickly as possible.
Your team also made a litany of other mistakes this game I haven't mentioned yet, but I won't bother getting into those unless you continue refusing to take responsibility for your actions this game.
MVPs
1. @Lord Genome (Ashe) - perhaps the most overlooked part of this game is that we actually got to witness the ultra-rare appearance of town leader LG. LG was one of the first to scum read Odd, he pushed Odd harder than anyone else did, and he (alongside WPK) took charge of organizing the votes to play around Sin's passive. If I had to point to one reason why town won this game, it was because of LG playing as well as he did and maximizing the power of his passive.
2. @Nessos (Fiora) - Nessos's team was being cracked open by day 2, and Nessos was the only one really keeping them in the game. Nessos's play was so convincing that even when the town had a result indicating Mexikorn and Nessos were both scum, they dismissed it as a faulty result because they were all town reading Nessos. iirc, DDL was the only person who even raised the possibility of Nessos being mafia, and he did so halfheartedly. Although I disagree with Nessos about why he lost, I still think this game demonstrated that Nessos is one of our strongest players.
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Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Maybe it was hard for others to scumread me cause they couldn't really meta me. besides Odd(who was my scumbuddy) and Drago(who dies N1) none of them ever played a Game with me were I was scum.
@Lord Genome too. LG brought up a case that Mexikorn and I are scumbuddies. Then Kvothe came up with his result and he became the defender.of Mexikorn and me^^
Kvothe Kingkiller
Well-Known Member
Maybe it was hard for others to scumread me cause they couldn't really meta me. besides Odd(who was my scumbuddy) and Drago(who dies N1) none of them ever played a Game with me were I was scum.
@Lord Genome too. LG brought up a case that Mexikorn and I are scumbuddies. Then Kvothe came up with his result and he became the defender.of Mexikorn and me^^
the opposite. I thought you and him would be scumbuddy but he read you as hard town so i changed my mind momentarily
Kvothe Kingkiller
Well-Known Member
Samael was sure they were both scum too tbh
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Not if we had managed to convince Okosan then it would have become 50:50
Lord Melkor
Well-Known Member
Not if we had managed to convince Okosan then it would have become 50:50
You really shouldnt' have have outed yourself day 3 without knowing what most of townies abilities are. It was logical that there was some counter to Draven's power.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
As I mentioned we were allready done anyway. Through the leaks of your ability almost everyone befriended with me being scum. This would have also confirmed Mexikorn and many read Odd as scum too.
With too many Townies being halfass confirmed.
After Odd lynch, Mexikorn lynch would have come followed by mine. (Doesn't matter how many townreads me)
The only thing to we could do was pulling a stunt. Raising our votepower and make sure to reduce number of Townies as much as possible.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Yeah @Shizune is nipticking trying to point ou "Vote silencing LG" was never part of the plan or mentioned.
I know that was during the night phase, but at this point we might have decided to go after LG instead of Usopp. And also nothing to clear up. If we would have known "Vote silencing" means "setting Vote to 0" only.
Also dp started with "disabling Genomes vote" nothing to clear up to be able to start witha plan B.
But as I have already mentioned it is discussable if a host should be allowed to tell if a team missunderstands am ability. At this point one could see it as hint from host that we have to deal with LG. It is a double edged sword anyway.
Nesso said:
Oddjutsu said:
I know that was during the night phase, but at this point we might have decided to go after LG instead of Usopp. And also nothing to clear up. If we would have known "Vote silencing" means "setting Vote to 0" only.
Also dp started with "disabling Genomes vote" nothing to clear up to be able to start witha plan B.
But as I have already mentioned it is discussable if a host should be allowed to tell if a team missunderstands am ability. At this point one could see it as hint from host that we have to deal with LG. It is a double edged sword anyway.
Kvothe Kingkiller
Well-Known Member
but how would the host understand your intention though unless you ask? I read through it and before day 4 I don't think I saw a part where you thought vote silence meant otherwise tbh or may have misunderstand it. Maybe i missed it. You had a plan to vote silence LG but you asked the question about vote silence after day 4 started.
i saw even nitty interjecting about diana and fiora's interaction after mexi expressed some worries about it so its not like nitty doesnt help.
i always made it a habit to ask the hosts questions about my abilities tho or anyone else i might have a question of concerning the interaction.
SinRaven
SPACED OUT
It's always a good idea to just directly ask the host about certain ability interactions.
Shizune
Nope Nessos, you can keep trying to spin this story, but I'm crystal clear on what went down and I'm not wavering.
This was the sequence of events:
1. Town decides to lynch Oddjutsu while testing Sin's lynch immunity by putting Oddjutsu second in votes and Sin first
2. Your mafia team decides to all switch to Kvothe at the end of the day <<<< this is the game throwing move btw
3. LG claims to have a one shot that grants voting power, you (Nessos) don't notice, Odd does but thinks LG might not have any such ability when in fact, LG's ability not only exists but is also permanent
4. That night, you and Oddjutsu decide to kill Usopp because you think he's a vigilante. Killing LG is never discussed, and the two messages between you and Odd about LG that you just tried to use to prove me wrong were not sent until later that night phase, long after you had decided to kill Usopp.
5. The next day, you send this message, the phrasing of which clearly indicates that the idea of using Draven to disable Ashe's passive had not been discussed by your team before:
You also clearly realized that the idea was on shaky ground, because you followed up by immediately asking this question:
Which I replied to within a couple of hours:
You are wrong in three different ways here:
1. Your game throwing move was when you all outed yourselves to lynch Kvothe, which happened before you even knew LG had a voting ability.
2. You're now trying to say that the only reason you didn't kill LG that night is because you thought you could disable his ability. This is untrue, you guys still did not have a clue what his ability was at this point and you hadn't even discussed it yet (besides Oddjutsu saying it probably didn't exist) when you sent in the kill on Usopp. You never discussed LG's ability or considered killing LG that night.
3. The next day, when you proposed this idea of disabling LG's passive for the first time, I quickly replied to your question to indicate that it would not work.
You are being disingenuous and you're misrepresenting what happened. LG said his ability was a one shot, and none of you thought otherwise. That's why you didn't kill him. The first time you proposed the idea that you could disable LG's ability was on day 4, and I gave you all the information you needed to know that it wouldn't work. You can reply to me again to try and argue about this if you want, but like I said I am clear on what happened, the messages make it obvious, and I'm very unlikely to be convinced otherwise.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
The only reason it was never debated. Odd convinced me with saying "we can just Vote silence him". As I mentioned also the DP started with this. Also Sin directly jumped on the train.
I am tired of debating. And I can just repeat myself.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
And my critique point was that you ended the DP before answering my 2nd question.
I would have started a debatte with Okosan to convince him voting for Melodie.
Since you didn't answer it and only ask us to surrender, I thought vote silence was even more useless.
(You may blame Odd at this point cause he started rampaging, but again you could have put him on ignore or kicked out of the pm. I was still ready to fight)
I would have started a debatte with Okosan to convince him voting for Melodie.
Since you didn't answer it and only ask us to surrender, I thought vote silence was even more useless.
(You may blame Odd at this point cause he started rampaging, but again you could have put him on ignore or kicked out of the pm. I was still ready to fight)
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
And he thought "we only need to Vote silence him". Thats why Odd think Game was rigged and rules we're change to let us loose.
I am just bringing up Odds point without those "rigging"-conspiracys.
If Odd had known Vote silence don't disable stuff he might habe changed the plan.
And just to make sure, I can understand when you don't interact if not directly asked.
Shizune
No, that is not what happened, and I'm losing my patience with your lies. I'm past the point of thinking that you and I are having a disagreement, and I'm to the point of thinking you are straight up lying and misrepresenting what happened on purpose. There's no way you could be espousing such an inaccurate interpretation of events by accident.
As you can see above, You guys did not consider killing LG that night. The only thing Odd "convinced" you to do was to change his investigation from LG to Okosan. You guys decided to kill Usopp without discussing LG whatsoever. Much later that night, after you had both agreed on the actions, you haphazardly mentioned that you were worried about LG's voting ability and Odd just said you could vote silence him. Odd did not "convince" you not to kill LG.
You guys also still did not know what LG's ability did at that point. Unless you two are actually the ones who have a secret Discord chat, we can clearly see that you guys did not know what LG's ability did or that he was lying about his ability only being a one shot. That means, THE REASON YOU DIDN'T KILL LG THAT NIGHT ISN'T BECAUSE YOU HAD A PLAN FOR HOW TO STOP HIS ABILITY. YOU GUYS DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE ABILITY DID NOR HAD YOU EVEN DISCUSSED IT AT THIS POINT.
Again, this is the sequence of events:
1. You and Odd speculate that Usopp is the vig and agree to kill him
2. Much later that night, you mention LG's vote power for the first time, and Odd dismissively says you can vote silence him
3. Odd dies that night
4. The next day, you speculate that you can vote silence LG to disable his ability. This is the first time this gets mentioned, and your tone makes it crystal clear that you are proposing the idea for the first time, rather than reviewing a plan your team had already discussed:
And you knew the idea might not be a good one, because you then immediately messaged again to basically ask me if it would work, and my reply should have made it clear to you that no, it would not work.
You're insisting that the reason you guys didn't kill LG on night 3 is because you planned to disable his passive with Draven's vote silence, but that is not true, and I believe you know it's not true. At that point, LG was still saying his ability was only a one shot, and you all believed him about that, except for OJ who speculated the ability didn't exist at all. You cannot have had a plan for dealing with LG's ability when you didn't even know what the ability did yet. You and Oddjutsu locked in the kill on Usopp immediately that night, and you guys never discussed killing LG. YOU DID NOT HAVE ANY PLAN FOR DEALING WITH LG. STOP LYING AND SAYING THAT YOU DID.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Does this you only refers to me or do you also incl. Odd?
As I mentioned Odd mentioned to vote
silence LG before the night was over. And He also implied the importance of the Vote silence during the DP were we plaaned to out us.
The plan had worked if "Vote silence" would have worked the way Odd thought and implied.
And again this is about Odds conspiracy theories and ae I already mentioned.
My complains are still the same. Kougas role was broken and this
It was still a fun game even so end was fucked up. I myself don't believe that the game was rigged or similiar.
Shizune
And this is the part of your messages that really just pissed me off. How about you go and tell your teammate and personal friend Oddjutsu not to spam your chat with hate messages toward the host instead of barking at the host about the consequences of what Odd did? Do you have any idea how many hosts on here would have responded to that by punishing your entire team because Oddjutsu was abusing the mafia chat and breaking several rules? You have not said anything to criticize Oddjutsu but you have written post after post detailing what you think I did wrong. You need to be grateful I was so lenient on Oddjutsu because I could have just role crushed one of you right there as punishment and nobody would have thought twice about it. So don't be all buddy buddy with Oddjutsu after he just spent two days straight flaming me in every avenue available, then come in here to tell me I should have just tried to read your convo through his flame like it's my fault. If you're gonna write little comments toward anyone about that, you need to write them toward Odd. I really feel like you have me mistaken for someone else right now.
Shizune
@Nessos the part that you're still "accidentally" overlooking is that there are messages proving Oddjutsu did NOT know what LG's ability did, or if was even real, at that point. So like I said before, you need to quit pretending ANY of you had a plan to deal with that ability, or that I did something to disrupt your plan (that didn't exist), or that Oddjutsu is somehow justified in accusing this website's most tenured host of rigging their own game.
I'm not keeping this cute with you two anymore, you need to come correct to me from now on.
I'm not keeping this cute with you two anymore, you need to come correct to me from now on.
SinRaven
SPACED OUT
So can we leave it at that?
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
As I mentioned if you would have put him on ignore you wouldn't have seen his messages.
And about the marked part you punished us for Odds behaviour by ending the DP before completly clearing up vote silence completly.
AND DON'T BLAME ME FOR STUFF YOU DON'T KNOW IF I HAVE DONE IT OR NOT!
I TOLD ODD TO CALM DOWN AND I ALSO TOLD HIM THAT BELIVING IN RIGGED GAME IS BS. I DID IT OUTSIDE OF THE GAME CAUSE THE GAME DIDN'T END. AND ALSO HERE IN THIS THREAD I TOLD ODD TO CALM DOWN.
Odd felt unfair treated, He vegan rampaging you couldn't handle it and punished the while team.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
I mean I even quoted my own question, mentioning that this is important....
Lord Melkor
Well-Known Member
Exactly. In role madness with 20 players you cannot predict everything anyway.
Shizune
@Nessos I did NOT, in fact, punish your team, and I do not appreciate you trying to say that I did. Okosan has already tried explaining to you that he was not moving his vote and there was no point continuing that day phase. Again, you are blaming me for not seeing your question, instead of Oddjutsu for spamming your chat. It was Oddjutsu's fault, not mine.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Believe me I can be convincing.
As I mentioned I didn't even got the chance. Still had more than 24h left.
Shizune
Well listen, I got frustrated with you just now and I haven't changed my mind about what happened, but like I said in my MVP writeup I think you're a good player and I look forward to having more games with you in the future.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
The question was before Odd start stamming in was never in between. You would have seen it, if you would have put him on ignore.
Hidden
A Human from the Present
Coooo! (To be fair Okosan literally was not moving his vote. That plan he posted was the only way for Okosan to even have a chance to win Okosan is pretty certain. And that involved Mexikorn dying that day)
WolfPrinceKiba
Dog of War
If Okosan's vote could merely bring the vote to a tie you don't have a solid argument of being cheated here.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Believe if I have threatened you or offered cooperating. Publicating anything about the team. You may have realized the only Chance you have would be to tie the vote on Melodie to have a 50:50 chance in winning.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Again my question wasn't answered and the DP ended more than 24h before it should.
I didn't even get the chance to try to do so.
And yes thats something I can complains about. If I had tried and lost then it would have been like it is.
Hidden
A Human from the Present
Cooo! (Nessos if Okosan votes with you he has to then kill you at night. Okosan went through this earlier, but this has two big problems with it. A) It angers the entirety of town as Okosan seems to have not killed Mexikorn that night and then publicly went against them again during the day. B) Mafia probably has better abilities and Okosan is less likely to be able to kill them in the first place. It's infiinitely better for Okosan to be able to kill town instead of mafia if it's at all possible. Plus two kills from nowhere can be more explained as you killing town, and not a random mafia dying. Overall making it look like you're trying to frame Okosan more than Okosan needing to eliminate everyone)
COOOO! (Plus Okosan was immune to everyone but WPK. So Okosan wouldn't care about anything you threaten him with tbh)
Coo! Cooo! (Trust Okosan he thought through all the options)
WolfPrinceKiba
Dog of War
Your mafia also benefited from a phase extension on d1, so I'm not very inclined to think you got cheated at all.
FLORIDA MAN
bastard
The only person who cheated here was Santi, banning players during the game. He just loves banning people.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
In which was did the mafia faction benefitrd from phase extension? Okosan wasn't member of Mafia Team.
WolfPrinceKiba
Dog of War
And now he's banning those who see the truth! When will this dictator be stopped!The only person who cheated here was Santi, banning players during the game. He just loves banning people.
Hidden
A Human from the Present
Coooooo! (Man good thing Santi isn't part of the discord with us)
WolfPrinceKiba
Dog of War
If phase ended at normal time, Mexicorn is highly likely the lynch d1.
Nessos
"HighFiveNight" - News
Then I would have busted Odd next. Kvothe would have never compared Mexi and me and Sin and I could have played the immortality combo.
Also 90min before end of phase much could have happened and might have managed to misslynch Odd.
Game could have went down many different ways. Saying it only helped scum is BS.
Lord Genome
Spiral King
i agree that last day phase shouldnt have ended early if mafia didnt agree with it imo although it could have looked like a they gave up kinda thing i guess(though it was late) since okason saying he wouldnt change his vote is a hindsight thing and we cant know that at the time etc
also cause odd keeps mentioning it, melkor getting chat logs wasnt op. what actually was op was him getting his ability wrong and saynig two were true, cause that helped a lot more than if it was the one true etc lmao
also cause odd keeps mentioning it, melkor getting chat logs wasnt op. what actually was op was him getting his ability wrong and saynig two were true, cause that helped a lot more than if it was the one true etc lmao
WolfPrinceKiba
Dog of War
Might be one of the first times ever that an ability derp helped more than hurt.
Lord Melkor
Well-Known Member
This was an honest mistake from my part, nice to hear that it helped town.
Kvothe Kingkiller
Well-Known Member
you are not wrong about game could have went down different ways if d1 ended at normal time. I wouldve gotten an extra charge on my ability though if mexi did get lynched d1 so that game would be entirely different. Hard to say that i wouldnt check you down the line just cause at that point it would be a different game. Even if I didn't check you, I could confirm someone else.
anyways i understand its frustrating. But congrats on mvp, you still did well despite it sorta crumble apart. I still stand behind on nitty on this at least. I don't think he necessarily did anything wrong, it is hard to just jump in and say don't vote silence lg because his ability will still work considering I dont think you knew what his ability was exactly (i dont think you guys got his role sheet?). I do find that wpk ability a little flawed because it did out birdie and sin so i agree with you on that.
onward to the next game nessos, I hope i get to play more with you
join me in spite voting sin
JoJo
nani the fuck
Did we lynch yasuo?
